Bizhub C652 & TaskAlfa 500ci

I'm not sure of the difference between the emulator and the OEM for PSIII, however I thought it was a good topic for a post. I put it here http://p4photel.com/eve/forums...=619104812#619104812

Can anyone KonicaMinolta people help us out on this? Plus you should still be able to access BERTL through the aficio league, I just used it last night.

Art

I sell both Ricoh and KM. When choosing between the two lines regarding color, I lead with KM. Especially the updated C652 / C552 series (I realize that doesn't help you sell your Ricoh).

Try pushing the PPDM solution from Ricoh if you can, KM really doesn't have as clean a solution as PPDM.

Thanks for the feedback. I did a killer demo and had them sold on the Genuine PS3, new User Account Limits app, along with Mail-to-Print and a few other features, but it was not enough to make up the $197 in additional monthly expense for the RFG product versus the Kyocera b/w and Konica-Minolta color that was being proposed by the competition. I think what killed me on pricing was that the LD260c/MP C6000 is over $8,500 per month higher than the LD550c/MP C5000, which equates to more than the $200 per month price difference. As an FYI...this was a price-driven deal in which I was 20% below my "Sales Cost" and used all of the Q4 RFG discounts that I had to work with.

That brings up a secondary topic: How does a single-line RFG dealer (excluding A4) overcome that significant price difference between the 50ppm system & the 60ppm system on B2C products? The environment where I proposed the 60ppm runs roughly 35k b/w and 9k color per month, so I was not comfortable proposing the LD550c/MP C5000 in that environment.

Any thoughts (outside of pairing a b/w MFP w/ a high-speed color printer; I tried that) on how to overcome this would be greatly appreaciated, as this is a scenario that seems to continually come up, particularly when competing against Konica-Minolta.

What type of account was this?

It is/was a church with a medium-sized private school. Our DSM always tells us to use the U.S. Communities and NCPG contracts for non-profits & churches, but the pricing we utilized was nearly 35% below the contract price for those 2 contracts, and we were still $197 per month higher than the competition. It's hard to narrow that gap, regardless of the relationship or value the prospect sees in your organization.

geesh! Hard to over come $197 per month, but easier to over $3.00 per day.

Were you in the incumbent or was KM?
Was KM a dealer or direct?

In this case, I would have tried to lead with two units, like you suggested the mono copier and the color printer. However, I would also have asked these two questions:

How often do you copy and original?

Most places do not copy that often and if you can get them to agree to this, then you have a chance of leading them to an A4 copy solution and an A3 print solution.

Do you need to copy or scan 11x17? (Most churches, at least the ones in NJ don't need to copy 11x17 and rarely print 11x17.

If the answer is no, I would then lead with a 55ppm A4 device with Sammy and then present the Ricoh color printer @ 50ppm with any of the extra bells and whistles.

You come back with a new pitch stating, "would you consider a creative solution that may drive your TCO lower?

Then you need to sell the heck out of the benefits of having two devices compared to one, and also if you're against direct, sell the heck out of being able to solve issues in a quick and timely matter.

Seems to me price is the driver factor and if so you should change the rules. Hope this helps.

Art

Strictly looking at the difference between the MP C6000 and MP C5000, you made the right choice to go with the higher speed model at those volumes. Obviously there is a significant difference in HW price (apples and oranges), but the MP C6000 should have a lower CPP that makes up that difference. Assuming a BW click that is 2 mils cheaper on the MP C6000 and a color click that is a penny cheaper, that equates to a savings of $160, making the monthly delta only $40 vs $200. Am I missing something?

quote:

Originally posted by Mongey:
Strictly looking at the difference between the MP C6000 and MP C5000, you made the right choice to go with the higher speed model at those volumes. Obviously there is a significant difference in HW price (apples and oranges), but the MP C6000 should have a lower CPP that makes up that difference. Assuming a BW click that is 2 mils cheaper on the MP C6000 and a color click that is a penny cheaper, that equates to a savings of $160, making the monthly delta only $40 vs $200. Am I missing something?

Could be that the dealer is not passing through the cpc savings for this unit, or KM is direct and is low balling the cpc.

Great input. However, the customer was looking for a blended CPP for the b/w and color service, and as a result, the CPP was extremely aggressive on both fronts. Based on what I have seen in the field, the $.0550 that we used as our color CPP, we still would have been high compared to the comparable Konica-Minolta systems.

Danka was the incumbent, so the Konica-Minolta dealer brought the most aggressive pricing possible to the deal. I tried to go down the road of copy volume versus print volume, but since the vast majority of the volume is run in their school, most of the volume is copying, and they hope to start scanning more. I do like your thinking of pairing A4 MFPs with A3 printers and vice-versa for other commercial accounts, provided that their aren't any space constrictions. Additionally, the church and school do a lot of 11 x 17 booklets and were not keen on the idea of reducing that to legal. This function was also in the favor of the KM dealer, because they do single-click 11 x 17, and we do not on the segments proposed in this deal.

Thanks for providing me with a creating solution moving forward, however.

I understand giving away the razors, since at the end of the day we are in the razorblade business. But our competitors are destroying the margins on the razorblades, too, which is bad news bears for our industry. My guess is that reps who get paid on the aftermarket are the exception rather than the rule, and most will give away the store on the clicks to hold onto any shred of GP they might have in the box. Some dealers are paying their reps on what they make on the back-end, which ultimately ensures profit on the "right" side of the deal.

This is also good ammunition for more solutions-based selling, which makes it more difficult for a customer to see two proposals as equivalent and therefore makes it more difficult to base their decision simply on who is cheapest.

I know I'm preaching to the choir...

Many of us don't have a "Sammy" option to propose. My 2 cents worth...Those that are familiar with BEI would disagree with the statement that the MPC5000 can't handle 35K B/W and 10K color. For those that don't know, BEI tracks service histories by model nationwide. I no longer have access to BEI but I would bet money that the "sweet spot" for the C5000...that place where the cost to maintain is the lowest per copy, is around the volume you are talking about here. The longest MCBF (Mean Copies Between Failure) are always the models doing the higher volumes (obviously to a point). You didn't specify a term and we do mostly all 36 month terms. A 60 month term at this volume does push the total meter but no 60 month term should actually be allowed to go 60 months if possible.
All that being said, I would prefer a C6000 in this case because of the extra feature possibilities (Did you suggest the 9 bin Mailbox?) and I will walk away from a deal if I don't believe in the solution. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't have had a problem proposing the C5000 at this volume if I had to to get the deal.

Old Glory

First glad to see you're back in ET. Second, glad to hear that those twisters didn't mess yall up!

When competing with units, some times one of the first things I look up is the weight of the unit, yeah, may so stupid however it's my way of telling what a beefier unit is. In all it's glory the KM was only..........gee gotta remember 120lbs heavier or less when you added the options for the Ricoh. BTW, yes, if I did not have the "Sammy" I too would have proposed the MP C5000. Hey, this may have been a good spot for the ComColor, break the rules, change the rules and offer a 90ppm system for a few dollards more, ya never know!

Mongey.....yeah we're being squeezed on all sides, but I don't blame the dealers on this, I blame all of the direct branches. The old quota system is tearing our business to shreds and us along with it.

Art

Really!?!?...you guys would recommend an MP C5000 in an environment doing 35K black and 9K color?! I'm almost certain that my service department would crucify me the first time something went wrong here! According to Ricoh's "Technical Service Copier Specification Chart" the recommended average monthly volume for this system is only 15K total with 30% color (or 11.5K black and 4.5K color). Surely one of your competitors would bring this fact in front of a potential buyer (...sorry for calling you Shirley).

Having said that...maybe I'm completely wrong for believing anything Ricoh publishes. Does anyone have access to the BEI info that Old Glory mentioned? It sounds like this info would go a long way toward redeeming me the next time my service department cries about a client over-working their system.

Brian

The real issue is not whether a certain machine can "handle" a certain volume, but whether the customer will be OK with the amount of service needed. If customer A is OK with seeing service once a week while customer B's expecation is to only see a tech once a month, then you could possibly put very different systems into each location, even though they run the same exact volume (all other things being equal).

All that aside, the maximum (not average) monthly volume is the true gauge of the system's capability, and for the MP C5000, max is 50K/mo. This max assumes a few things: PMs performed as scheduled, 20lb bond paper, 8.5x11" paper, 30% color ratio, volume spread out evenly over 30 days, machine is installed under operable environmental conditions. You should back off this max to where you feel comfortable based on the customer's deviation from these assumptions (e.g. they run heavy-weight paper, or their color ratio is higher). Keep in mind that service pricing is developed based on published average volume, so make sure your service manager is on board with the CPP you are offering to higher volume customers.

I've been in the industry for 29 years and worked for 7 different companies. I have represented every manufacturer but Xerox and Sharp (even sold 3M and Saxon copiers). I only say this to suggest that I have pretty much seen it all but one thread has been consistant throughout. Service wants all equipment sold to be new, have a one year history before it's sold, and be located within 10 miles of the office. Of course they think sales would sell anything they can make a buck on and want it to be maintained for free for the first three years.
This is what I have come to believe. If your service dept is run by a past tech that is where he is because he is the most tenured, chances are, he seldom actually looks at cost vs revenue. In his mind, if a machine needs service every month, it is a problem machine. I have a C2500 at a church doing nearly 40K color 9K black every month. When I sold it they were doing a fraction of that or that isn't what I would have sold them (although I may have just to get the 1224C out of there!!!) Since January they have averaged a call a month but our revenue is $4,000/mo.! Obviously they wish for more speed but understand that they can't afford it right now. If I could get them to lease I could cost justify based on lower operating costs but they are committed to paying cash for everything.
I'm not saying this scenario is right or typical. I'm just saying that these machines can be pushed harder than we usually give them credit for. BEI helped convice me that only two things should matter...#1 Customer satisfaction and #2 profitability. Making a technicians life easier is not on the list. That being said, BEI has now brought our technicians around to believing as well. We have more problems with profitability of underutilized machines (C6000 doing 15K for instance)than we do with scenarios such as this.
Don't take from this that we go around looking to put C2500's in environments doing 40K... neither sales nor service will knowingly allow that to happen but a C5000 if we can't get a C6000 in there...that isn't business we walk away from.

Is anyone seeing the color Taskalfa models' lack of a fiery controller as a big disadvantage?

Is the pantone matching enough?

My guess is that the new 552ci and any other forthcoming high speed KMA color systems will suffer from not having Fiery capabilities..

Thoughts?

GINTEL

This might be better suited for the general forums or even the KYO forums.

I don't believe Kyo wants to play in P4P, CRD or high Graphics. They are a low cost provider and from what they are releasing it seems that they are going to stay that way. However if in a p4p, crd, or graphics shop, they will surely NOT be on the short due to not having a fiery.

If it's general office use, it's not a big deal. I don't have one machine in a commerical account with a fiery. Remember it's not about the dpi, not the bit depth of color. It's all about the dithering.

"It's all about the dithering."

That sounded funny.

At the same time, I do believe that bit depth is key, even in typical business environments.