John Saramak and I go back to the first days of the Print4Pay Hotel. All of us had to learn about networking and how to connect our MFPs to networks for printing and scanning. It was a great learning lesson for us.
Selling Copiers in the Eighties
Art: John how did you find your way into the copier industry?
John: I started in the industry in 1982. I had worked my way through college during the mid-70’s working at Republic Steel in Buffalo NY, worked in production then went through and graduated from the corporate management training program in 1981. I had a great job, future, and was making 35K with tons of benefits. My 17 ¾ % mortgage didn’t stress me as it was a write off, until the industry died and my plant closed in 1982.
My options were slim in Mfg. Management and with no experience, I took an entry level street sales job selling Savin liquid copiers at straight commission. These jobs had about a 90% turn rate in the first six months, however I did make a go of it hitting quota. No leads, existing customers, or large accounts…. the senior reps and managers got all that.
In my daily knocking on doors routine, I found a new company that was opening up operations in Buffalo and New York State – ComDoc, representing Ricoh under their own name. I looked good with my 6 months experience, big ass station wagon full of copiers (leaking toner all over), and a real desire to play in the big leagues.
Long story short, I spent 25 years there sharing great success with the company and countless peers who bought into the company’s excellent management plans. Anyone in the business now or then, knows ComDoc as a true success story and I was fortunate to be part of it.
Art: Interesting right? Can't believe the interest rate was 17 3/4%! So what company or manufacturer did you start with, what was your title and what year did you start?
John: So with ComDoc I started out in 1983 as an Account Executive, and our business plan was to go right at the Xerox’s major account base. Ricoh was relatively unknown to our Buffalo marketplace just as ComDoc was. We were a stable 25-year-old Ohio company, but ambitious ownership expanding through New York’s four major thruway belt cities.
I took my 25-year-old bumps and bruises going up against Xerox’s big hitters and some other local well-established dealers, many with former Xerox reps. However, my skills improved as well as the ability to move customers to take a chance on me, and when they did, I learned the referral process really well and got traction.
Combining personal drive and strong manager support, playing against the big boys always had large payoff’s when you win. People who previously did not consider a dealer usually were paying top dollar and welcomed better service and pricing, that was list price for us and big commissions.
In my first year, I had a deal with a local bank that was considering a Xerox 8200, but bought 3 Ricoh 6080’s at list price from me, because “they trusted me” with a better alternative.
Art: If you worked for a dealer or manufacturer, please tell us what brand(s) you sold and what was your favorite model top sell and why that was your favorite.
John: Ricoh had great early 1980’s product devices such as the 4060 with multi reductions. As most Mfg.’s wanted to move upstream, Ricoh hit gold with the 7060. Auto reverse feeder, and it offered computer forms feed and stapling. Xerox was still leading people to spec those “lock out” features as it was unique to them for so long. I had several that were not up on their competitive info and stole some business.
So now you could offer that. But the real plus of this unit was a 17-inch drum, which allowed for feeding 11 x 17 in portrait mode and doing legal size at 100% rated speed. Xerox was great at their productivity charts and this machine allowed you to beat them at their own game.
Art: Who did not loving Xerox! What was the percentage of copier sales people that made it past two years and why made them last or not last so long?
John: ComDoc invested back in the company with great training. I think that the overall market place probably had 80% or so leaving in that time line (2 years). I believe in our case is was much less as we had better management and a range of assignments with different quotas. In our case we were not perfect, but also had a number of successful reps leave to move on to medical or other sales. The fact they succeeded in a very competitive and activity-oriented business was attractive
Our company set high standards and some could not make it with consistency, for a number of reasons. On the other side witnessed many people from various walks of life previously, who took it all seriously and grew along with company. The business itself put the same challenges on everyone, however there was a continually growing number of success stories in all of our offices.
Every company wanted to adopt an environment of a “Career” vs job, but the company’s continual success confirmed it was present here. We were proving that it was not a matter of how many bodies on the street or calls made…. it was really about quality and it worked to push back the turnover curve.
John: What did you like the most about your job in the eighties?
Art: Above all, was achieving success and growth, and being in a company (ComDoc) environment that fostered it. Our company had 11 branches at the time and even though our sales stack rankings has us competing against each other, I developed many true friendships where someone would help me close a deal even it it took them away from their own battles. I felt I could be in control of my career and not have to go through another steel industry meltdown and lose my job for unforeseen circumstance. Towards the late 80’s, we were marching on and not looking back. We had the respect of our customers and competitors.
What really enhanced our position that our company became involved with new evolving technologies while others were just moving boxes. That included G 3 fax, enhanced AV products, laser optic filing, and my favorite, scanning. Not only basic matrix matching where the square plug fits in the square hole, but Kurzweil artificial intelligence that could even read handwriting. Although each product type in our company had specialists to sell them, I was able to learn the process and effectively sell all. I could truly offer end to end value to my clients, as many of my competitors were stomping around “what’s it going to take to do business today”. Also, I was truly interested in them.
John: What did you dislike the most about your job in the eighties?
Art: With product innovation and new features on our product, these were often lead in’s and carried interest in approaching prospects and helped in the decision process. So adding extra time and resources in creating your offering was becoming more and more rewarding by finding and developing a unique customer need
However even though our company was a large Ricoh dealer with lots of compliments from them, having small multi line dealers (Ricoh one of them) in town with little restriction often found them finding their way in your deal with the “me too” approach . You did the work, they show up offering the same product and cut the profit out of the deal. It often was represented by a manager or even an owner whose price did not involve the cost of a sales rep. The 80’s economy was fairly flat and price mattered.
Multiple dealers of your own brand were a pain, and having three other brands of the same machine (Savin, Gestetner, Lanier, PB for a while) just named differently would give a client 5 + choices of the same box. To succeed you needed to stay the course, sell harder, and separate yourself with your own positive attributes. This aspect was the least concerning as there are many other products under different names. (Chevy/Buick/Pontiac/Oldsmobile).
However with Ricoh as the Mfg. and we often used their programs in addition to the product. It was confusing to the customer, and sometimes they would evade all the Ricoh offers and go back with X.
And it often led to difficult conversations within your clients account as to “How can they be so much less, especially with us having your product already”. As I evolved from street sales to major accounts, this became more frequent. Understanding how manufacturers work and how the Ricoh RSM rep’s business plan/quota was, you had to deal with it. Ricoh was a hot name.
John: What was the compensation plan like, was there a salary, what is just commissions or was there a mix of salary and commissions?
Art: Our plans changed each year and as we progressed a mixed salary/commission/bonus plan emerged. Regardless of how it was termed, everything was performance based, yet offered reps a true opportunity to manage their plan. For example, there was weighting of sales revenue/gross profit/new business to hit your plan. Someone might go and sell big deals at lower margins while some might generate high profit deals that lead to the same result – hitting quota and presidents club.
Once a rep hits their first presidents club, they would never want to miss as the event was so well presented. It was a quality location where success was celebrated by all.
As the industry was changing with product offerings as well as the markets we targeted, so did the comp plans. In later years the gates became mandatory to insure a product venture got the attention of the reps.
Ricoh did have periodic incentives direct to the dealer sales rep which were attractive, it was above and beyond your normal comp plan. Although it wasn’t in the 80’s era, the Ricoh Aficio League was a most motivating and useful tool as I have seen. Great incentives by product, and a very valuable blog where I became familiar with Art Post.
John: Ty John, how did you go about finding new business, and what was your favorite of those methods and why?
Art: Joining a brand-new company in a new marketplace with a new manufacturer, when you are the first employee with not even on machine to reference at first, it was all cold calling. Be it phone or in person, no one was calling in and we had to go find the business.
As time went on and my base increased, referrals would add a number of new opportunities. Sure, we all want and ask for them, but I would spend more time with a customer at any level (DM, key op, or user). Finding out any organization they were part of from their church, social club, friend…. I would pursue them and work to get myself in but go back and ask them for a boost when needed at any point of the process.
Charitable organizations (Diocese, United Way,) had many affiliates and I was able to establish a program of some sort that was attractive. In return for using their organizations names as a hunting license, I promised and delivered a quality program that was perceived with value. It didn’t secure the business, but it was enough to convey a comfort level with me being new to them, and got me in the door.
John: How did you go about finding new business, and what was your favorite of those methods and why?
Art: Joining a brand-new company in a new marketplace with a new manufacturer, when you are the first employee with not even on machine to reference at first, it was all cold calling. Be it phone or in person, no one was calling in and we had to go find the business.
As time went on and my base increased, referrals would add a number of new opportunities. Sure, we all want and ask for them, but I would spend more time with a customer at any level (DM, key op, or user). Finding out any organization they were part of from their church, social club, friend…. I would pursue them and work to get myself in but go back and ask them for a boost when needed at any point of the process.
Charitable organizations (Diocese, United Way,) had many affiliates and I was able to establish a program of some sort that was attractive. In return for using their organizations names as a hunting license, I promised and delivered a quality program that was perceived with value. It didn’t secure the business, but it was enough to convey a comfort level with me being new to them, and got me in the door.
John: What was the first sales book that you read that and what did you take away from it?
Art: Successful Selling by Tom Hopkins. There were numerous benefits I gained from this, the greatest being that ongoing self-study was going to be a difference maker. Tom Hopkins at the time was renowned for his success and knowledge in sales, and had a great delivery and teaching presentation. Also, rather than being product related (speeds, feeds, trays, etc.) it focused on moving people to take action, in your favor. It’s not necessary what you say but how and when you say it. It talked of leading people through questions…. which is geometrically more effective that blurting out facts and figures.
It paved the way for ongoing self-study and interest in my career, and applying its attributes helped improve my desired impact to be a professional. It made the process fun, and gave hope for continued success. I was fine with doing the legwork, but I wanted to improve the success ratio and returns for what I was putting in.
ComDoc was incredibly supportive of ongoing learning. Communication about the industry as well as our company was delivered on a regular basis. We were provided frequent readings and brought together regularly for intra branch training sessions with top name moderators. Early on, “student for life” thought process was in place and remained. It helped make a difference not only in gaining customers, but in attracting talent which was the key to our growth and success.
To this day being retired, I still take interest in learning.
John: What type of car did you use for your demonstrations and how many demonstrations would you perform in a week demonstration?
Art: At the time of entering the copier business, I had a but a beautiful brand-new Yamaha Motorcycle. A condition of employment at the time was a car or truck to fit a gurney, so I said bye bye to the bike and sold it and bought a huge, old Ford Galaxy wagon. It was a big ugly car but with the rest of the money I bought 3 tailored Hart, Schaffner, and Marx 3-piece suits. So, I would pack that car with 2-3 units and go about my day. Not a pretty scene, but I looked good and worked until 5 every day showing those units to anyone who would look.
John: Can you tell us a couple of funny stories about selling copiers in the seventies?
Art: I made a courtesy call to a large account that I was able to “get my foot in the door” that was a Xerox house with 40 units. My contact actually was in the lobby with the Xerox sales manager as they were waiting for the rep to show up with paperwork for 8 renewals. On my way out from doing some touch up training, my contact (looking mad and frustrated) said the Xerox Sales rep never showed, he told the manager to leave, and signed on the spot for 8 units.
Another was competing against Pitney Bowes who had demonstrated an exact match of a Ricoh Mfg. product. When the customer came in to the office for a demo, I recognized that our unit fell dead in the water when powered up. Lots of lights, some grinding, and then…. nothing. They had brought in the copy samples and jobs they seen at the PB office, all of which they loved and said they were the ones to beat.
We had a working relationship with a mailing machine competitor of theirs and he had provided info and reference that PB was only interested in the copier part of the business to cream them on the mailing solution, and also had a proposal of theirs to prove it. We did some good ole Xerox “FUD” (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) on the overall situation. Our demo was just going to the machine saying it was the same, but proclaimed our dual approach had more value and they signed on the spot. They even asked if the machine they seen (dead) was going to be theirs.
Anything can happen!!
Probably the best happened on my first day in the field by myself. Although I had a whole week’s training, I basically had a 3-page memorized script I was ready to follow. Anyhow, I was so green, and I was scared, and walked around the building I was going to knock on…. for about 40 minutes. I finally said enough, they probably are not going to see me so I blurted out that I wanted to see the DM. My first cold call on October 16th , I got invited in and between sweating all over the place I got the speech out.
The funny part is I had mentioned an attractive tax incentive of that time – the Investment Tax Credit, 10% back for previous year purchases. I got the call on 12/31/82 if I could deliver and invoice, we could and we did, it was $10,000 sales at the time which today would be much more. First cold call – success! You gotta believe.
John: What is the biggest problem you seeing facing the industry today?
Art: People – finding them, hiring them, keeping them, and establishing an acceptable performance package. Growth of a dealer is going to come from gaining competitive business for the most part, as well as expanding your product and service offering. In my final years running a small family dealership (5 million Sales), it was attracting candidates who would embrace that a good portion of their position would be prospecting.
From a dealer perspective, locking into a MFG relationship that you know is strong and where they won’t come back at your own base is a concern. In addition, as there are more fixed usage contracts being let with prices guaranteed for 5+ years, the costs of providing residual service and supplies have wafer thin margins. A slight increase in the dealers’ costs can turn that great deal upside down.
John: If you had to would you do it all over again, if so, what would you change?
Art: First and foremost, I would pound it into my head that the payout for finishing 2nd in a deal is the same as finishing last. And depending on your own business plan, it could be worse. Although we were dealing with savvy technology, it can be an involved process for competing in a deal and often requires using resources above and beyond your own time.
As a rep you need to be 100% objective and 0% hopeful that just because someone talks nice and takes your call has you in the stretch in first. Indeed, you have to play to get paid, but the better you get at reading the pulse and applying appropriate action can make a difference in your pay and maybe your career.
I had a number of situations where I got the dear John letter telling me that next time, we will certainly consider you, and sometime got it in subsequent rounds because I was persistent. This meant you needed to wait and be there, as well as put food on the table for today.
But this is a performance-based business and we only get paid on what we closed.
John: What’s the one piece of knowledge that you’d like to share with new reps entering our industry?
Art: Welcome to selling. It’s about getting into someone’s head and motivating action in your favor. I distinctly recall my 2nd day in the business asking a very polished professional (owner of the dealership, former sales director of NCR corporation), “what does it take to sell?” The response was “A need, money, and an open mind”.
Now 40 years later I think that is still accurate in its basic term. The key being an open mind. So I tell the new rep today you plan every day with quality work, you review every day with clarity as to accomplishing what you set out to do, and you are open to feedback by trusted and respected colleagues as to get it done.
Follow and USE your available resources. Quick example – Art Post shares 40 years of knowledge, passion, strategy, and success. Why wouldn’t a rep take the time to read it?? Every manager of reps should be asked this question, especially if they want their person to succeed.
If it’s a job hope for good luck and maybe you will be in the right place. If it’s a career, take it seriously. Focus on what is important and makes the difference, its often the perceived “hard stuff”. The turning point in my career at ComDoc was after a couple roller coaster years and finding excuses why my position was at the bottom of the track again, I was told “Only you can do it! Thank you Larry for setting me straight and I never looked back.
End of our chat
That was incredible and the time that John spend sharing his information was amazing. So much can still be learned from those that walked our paths before we appeared. I hope that we all take pieces of these tracks that will help us continue our paths down our sales cycle.
You can always reach out to John here!
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